First thing. Do you accept that israel is commiting a genocode in Palestine, and that its immoral?
Now for my answer to your question. I am not naive enough to say its not a complicated issue. Many generations have passed since Palestinian land was stolen to form Israel. The same can be said for a lot of other countries, but it’s not as recent history as here.
I am not smart enough to come up with an answer, but I am sure smarter people can come up with something that is fair to Palestinians whose land were stolen and population murdered, and Israelis who were born there because of actions taken many generations ago.
But while the Israeli government is literally irradicating the Palestinian people, this is an irrelevant discussion. The Zionist goal is to conquer Palestine and get rid of all the Arabs in the process. The fact that they are commiting crimes against humanity, which are on pat (if nor worst) to what the Nazis did to the Jews is unquestionable. Is it too much to say we should boycott any organizations enabling and or defending genocide?
The term genocide has two very distinct meanings. One is the juridical meaning, and I believe there is enough substance to have this disputed at the ICC. I’m all for bringing netanyahu and his bunch to justice, and even should the genocide not hold up for some reason, there certainly will be enough evidence crimes against humanity so they can serve a long long time.
The other is the moral meaning. But in my eyes this is very overused by the antizionist zeal. It was already used right on October 7th before Israel did any reaction to the hamas attacks, and for every single action since. The story of the boy who cried wolf comes to mind.
it’s arguments like this which makes the movement seem so uneducated:
The fact that they are commiting crimes against humanity, which are on pat (if nor worst) to what the Nazis did to the Jews is unquestionable.
The Nazis took every single Jew (and communist, and disabled or homosexual person, or any other scapegoat group) of any age they could find, in Germany, or any conquered country and put them into wagon trains. The trains would take the victims to Dachau or another concentration and working camp, if they were lucky. Dachau is a museum nowadays, school classes go in there joking, and come out very very sober. It’s worth a visit.
If they were less lucky they would be brought to Auschwitz or Treblinka or another of the 6 extermination camps. There they were carefully registered, stripped of clothes, dignity and anything remotely of worth, and then either put directly into the gas chambers. Or they were put into the camp from which workers were selected for moving the bodies into the furnaces. Alternatively, from the camp they were picked for a death march, or a ride on a truck, where the exhaust was funneled into the loading area, with the purpose to asphyxiate the victims. Or they were picked for experiments from the likes of Joseph Mengele. Or or or …
The list of Nazi crimes is much longer than this. And it is also very well documented. These things happened without a doubt.
I see many accusations against the IDF, and the list of accusations of crimes against humanity is long and worth following through before the ICC. But the Nazi comparison only shows you have no real historic perspective.
I am well aware of history, thank you. I’ve been to Dachau and Auschwitz. It was horrible.
You are making a difference without distinction.
All I read is, the mass killing of Arabs is not as bad as the mass killing of Jews. Doesn’t matter that they are mass killing Palestinians, starving the whole country, raping women and children, bombing hospitals, using chemical weapons, torturing prisoners. Tell me that the Israelis are not stripping the Palestinians of their dignity and all they are worth. Morally speaking I see no difference.
Even if I were to concede that Nazis were worse than what Israel is doing in Palestine, and that its not a genocide, it does change the fact of the immortality and human rights violalation they are perpetrating because of the Zionist ideology.
You clearly have a bone to pick with anyone with disagrees with Zionism. I’m done.
So this is the end? I object to a Holocaust comparison, and that make you leave the discussion? I don’t know why you need to balance large scale crimes against humanity out against each other. To me each is a ultimate failure of humans, and each is singular in their mechanics. The Nazis had perfected the industrialized mass killing, which makes the Holocaust somewhat unique among genocides. That doesn’t make other genocides being not-genocide or something, but the comparison also just doesn’t cut it. If anything it serves to make one wonder if you are among those who trivialize the Holocaust.
I stated multiple times that I disagree with Netanyahus treatment of the Palestinians and that I want to see him in court for his crimes.
Nevertheless the antizionist movement alltooften throws it all together, matched only by other extremist ideologies. It is extremely one sided in their version of history, uses unreasonable comparisons and arguments in areas where I am somewhat knowledgeable and where I can’t follow.
I hear the accusations, but when they come from antizionists, they’re distinguishable from “Jews are the devil” only by the other word “Zionists”. So how close is it to standard antisemitism?
Netanyahu and his own extremists belong to justice, along with the soldiers that actually do the crimes against humanity. That doesn’t make me any more willing to follow the other extremists.
Hm let’s see. Do you support those same Israelis also should they succeed and want to continue to live in their own country?
First thing. Do you accept that israel is commiting a genocode in Palestine, and that its immoral?
Now for my answer to your question. I am not naive enough to say its not a complicated issue. Many generations have passed since Palestinian land was stolen to form Israel. The same can be said for a lot of other countries, but it’s not as recent history as here.
I am not smart enough to come up with an answer, but I am sure smarter people can come up with something that is fair to Palestinians whose land were stolen and population murdered, and Israelis who were born there because of actions taken many generations ago.
But while the Israeli government is literally irradicating the Palestinian people, this is an irrelevant discussion. The Zionist goal is to conquer Palestine and get rid of all the Arabs in the process. The fact that they are commiting crimes against humanity, which are on pat (if nor worst) to what the Nazis did to the Jews is unquestionable. Is it too much to say we should boycott any organizations enabling and or defending genocide?
The term genocide has two very distinct meanings. One is the juridical meaning, and I believe there is enough substance to have this disputed at the ICC. I’m all for bringing netanyahu and his bunch to justice, and even should the genocide not hold up for some reason, there certainly will be enough evidence crimes against humanity so they can serve a long long time.
The other is the moral meaning. But in my eyes this is very overused by the antizionist zeal. It was already used right on October 7th before Israel did any reaction to the hamas attacks, and for every single action since. The story of the boy who cried wolf comes to mind.
it’s arguments like this which makes the movement seem so uneducated:
The Nazis took every single Jew (and communist, and disabled or homosexual person, or any other scapegoat group) of any age they could find, in Germany, or any conquered country and put them into wagon trains. The trains would take the victims to Dachau or another concentration and working camp, if they were lucky. Dachau is a museum nowadays, school classes go in there joking, and come out very very sober. It’s worth a visit.
If they were less lucky they would be brought to Auschwitz or Treblinka or another of the 6 extermination camps. There they were carefully registered, stripped of clothes, dignity and anything remotely of worth, and then either put directly into the gas chambers. Or they were put into the camp from which workers were selected for moving the bodies into the furnaces. Alternatively, from the camp they were picked for a death march, or a ride on a truck, where the exhaust was funneled into the loading area, with the purpose to asphyxiate the victims. Or they were picked for experiments from the likes of Joseph Mengele. Or or or …
The list of Nazi crimes is much longer than this. And it is also very well documented. These things happened without a doubt.
I see many accusations against the IDF, and the list of accusations of crimes against humanity is long and worth following through before the ICC. But the Nazi comparison only shows you have no real historic perspective.
I am well aware of history, thank you. I’ve been to Dachau and Auschwitz. It was horrible.
You are making a difference without distinction. All I read is, the mass killing of Arabs is not as bad as the mass killing of Jews. Doesn’t matter that they are mass killing Palestinians, starving the whole country, raping women and children, bombing hospitals, using chemical weapons, torturing prisoners. Tell me that the Israelis are not stripping the Palestinians of their dignity and all they are worth. Morally speaking I see no difference.
Even if I were to concede that Nazis were worse than what Israel is doing in Palestine, and that its not a genocide, it does change the fact of the immortality and human rights violalation they are perpetrating because of the Zionist ideology.
You clearly have a bone to pick with anyone with disagrees with Zionism. I’m done.
So this is the end? I object to a Holocaust comparison, and that make you leave the discussion? I don’t know why you need to balance large scale crimes against humanity out against each other. To me each is a ultimate failure of humans, and each is singular in their mechanics. The Nazis had perfected the industrialized mass killing, which makes the Holocaust somewhat unique among genocides. That doesn’t make other genocides being not-genocide or something, but the comparison also just doesn’t cut it. If anything it serves to make one wonder if you are among those who trivialize the Holocaust.
I stated multiple times that I disagree with Netanyahus treatment of the Palestinians and that I want to see him in court for his crimes.
Nevertheless the antizionist movement alltooften throws it all together, matched only by other extremist ideologies. It is extremely one sided in their version of history, uses unreasonable comparisons and arguments in areas where I am somewhat knowledgeable and where I can’t follow.
I hear the accusations, but when they come from antizionists, they’re distinguishable from “Jews are the devil” only by the other word “Zionists”. So how close is it to standard antisemitism?
Netanyahu and his own extremists belong to justice, along with the soldiers that actually do the crimes against humanity. That doesn’t make me any more willing to follow the other extremists.